The commission just voted down further study and consideration of the tax incentive to bring a Lowe's to Ark City. 3-2 against, with Scott Margolius and Dottie Smith siding with Mel Kuhn in opposition.
Margolius, as I suspected, was the swing vote. He claims he hadn't made up his mind fully until the public hearing. After a long explanation of his thinkig and the arguments on both sides, he basically said that tax incentives for big national retailer are unfair and not the proper way to grow.
There's merit in this and that was my initial reaction when I first heard about this proposal. I began to tilt the other way after I considered Ark City's stagnant economy, the fact that so many people already bolt town to shop at Lowe's and Home Depot, and the psychology of rejecting a deal and sending an anti-growth message.
But, hey, I could be wrong and perhaps we could see resurgence in industrial employment that would trigger the shopping people here desire.
Anyway, Margolious ended a portion of his comments by saying it was a tough decision, the only no brainer was going against the Traveler because the Traveler supported it, and the Traveler doesn't get much right.
Some people groaned in disapproval. Others then applauded.
Cheap shot, but we can take it.
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45 comments:
Who was the "big gun" that Curtis Eaton paid for? How did this person get spotlight time like the developer? Why wasn't this person in the normal part of the hearing?
Is that how we make things happen around here? Paying for it?
Apparently not or the big box would have been approved. Maybe it's who you pay?
If I were you, I wouldn't worry about anything that Scott Margolius has to say. The only reason he is running a company, the only reason he has worked for Tihart, the only reason he is sitting on the commision, is because of who he married. He has no merit of his own, he is just riding on his wife's and her family's coat tails. And he shows it and blows it every time he opens his mouth, his wife and her family should put him under a gag order to prevent further embarrassment.
We have to worry about what Scott Margolius has to say. He is one of five people who make the big decisions for the city. I would think that his family would tell him to vote the will of the people. Or is it the will of the family?
You're right - everyone in this town should worry about what the city commissioners are saying and doing. They were elected to do what the people what them to do...my count last night had the vote FOR the proposal - or at least to a yes vote last night so we could all learn more about it. It doesn't appear to me that the "will of the people" was being noticed by our esteemed elected officials.
KSA §25-4301 et seq.
Recall may not commence during first 120 or last 200 days in office.
Grounds for recall are conviction of a felony, misconduct in office or failure to perform duties prescribed by law.
Time for gathering signatures is 90 days.
Signature requirement is number equal to 40% of the votes cast for the office in the last election.
"The Traveler never gets it right"...
There is no right and wrong here, only what the future is from the decisions made today.
Seems the Traveler predicted the vote, to the man.
When Cessna was looking for a factory, we said: no thanks, too much money, too much effort. They went to Independence and now employ 1500 people building the same model of plane they used to make at Strother.
When Creekstone came looking, we said: no way you can re-open the plant until you pay the city $2 million up front to repay the previous company's tax abatement penalty (for closing early in the deal). For some reason they didn't run away, but they likely could have.
Recently we have been trying to tax GE millions for a building they don't own. They came back and said they would pay it but never, ever again after a very long and heated negotiation with their lawyers in Chicago.
I'm dying to know why 4 industries packed up and moved away within 2 years, some of them in the cover of "expansion" (Binney and Smith). No explanations have ever been given, but I suspect it all hinges around how they were treated financially and what opportunities (and long term assurances) were available elsewhere. I know at the time that the paper was quoting the tax people as being very aggressive and indicating that it was their turn to "pay their fair share".
Ark City is not in a vacuum. Every business, every factory: everyone has the freedom of choice to locate anywhere else at any time. A number of long term businessmen have retired and closed or sold their businesses. Where did they go? Not Ark City.
The time to play "hard to get" with growth oriented businesses and industry is *way* over. Ark City needs to get the memo. It is not 1958.
The very sad thing about this is what we have lost and the message we have sent out. I truly believe the three commissioners who voted against this had their minds made up long before the meeting, in fact Kuhn has actually been quoted as saying he doesn't care what the people want, he doesn't like Lowes and does not want them here. At least Smith and Margolius "pretended" to be keeping an open mind, even though they fooled no one.
I DO worry tho, if Margolius has this "no growth" attitude for this town, then WHAT is his WIFE doing representing us????? When election time rolls around folks, please remember the stand that was made last night by Kelley's husband, is that the kind of mindset we want representing us?
I remember, a few years back, a person at a commission meeting whining on and on in opposition of the new apartment buildings. She was pleading that because they had "amenities" that they would destroy rent values of her pre-WWII houses.
She wanted to have the apartments blocked so people would "have to" rent old and crappy houses.
Same logic for the vote against the Lowes.
So now that we have told every big store that they are not welcome here and that we are not willing to negotiate with them at all where does that leave the progress of Ark City? OH right in the toilet where certain people want it. Seems the toilet fixers want more work for themselves for those that can not get out of town and are now forced to use them. Lets isolate ourselves and help Ark City die even faster. Thanks! NOW when we say GET OUT AND VOTE YOU KNOW WHY!!!! So certain people would not be making OUR decisions.
Who is leading the recall? Who do I contact? What can I do?
Who said the commissioners who voted against this are against growth? They said they were for growth and were concerned about the future of this particular opportunity because of long term effects. Why shouldn't we believe them? Where is the proof on the other side that this was good for us? Didn't sound like it was in the studies several people referenced. Arkansas City should have taken Cessna, but that's long gone and certainly wasn't the fault of this commission. Let's look to other opportunities. How about calling those commissioners and see if they would support other opportunities like industry. Sounded to me like they did. What if we gave them a chance to bring something like that in? I could get just as excited about that as a Lowe's. Maybe more. They would pay more. Maybe these commissioners really did do their job and protect the city from potential harm. I am willing to give them more time. I'm not willing to call names and make assumptions just because I might not have agreed with them.
I am not willing to give them more time at all...the damage they did to the city last night will have long term effects...they need to be stopped before more damage is done
Who was the attorney that Curis Eaton brought in and how did he get time with the big box guys. How did a private citizen get an attorney (who works only for who hired him) to speak out BEFORE the public hearing? Was this a setup? They did not ask to speak, the Mayor specifically called them to the microphone.
I want to know more about how this was set up and who all knew about it. Why did Curtis Eaton and his lawyer get special treatment?
The comparison of Lowes to Cessna is a horrible comparison. Lowes is retail shopping people. Lowes is not going to pay enough for youth to stay here that work there and support a family. This commission had nothing to do with the Cessna decision anyway. Why is that even a topic? In fact they have said that they are in support of breaks for industry. Industry that will pay enough to draw new people here. Industry that will help pay enough to keep people here. Industry that will give people the dispensable income to support a Lowes without assistance.
If this was such a good spot and their #1 choice for a spot to put the center, then why not build it anyway? If they were going to draw all of that “leakage” money they were claiming then why not build it regardless of the help? It seems strange that the lawyer for the developer goes from the first part of the meeting pea cocking around about how great this is and how much money Lowes and the city is going to make to in the end saying the project is dead if the assistance does not happen. He is not to confidant of his expert figures now huh?
I would love a Lowes here myself. I am selfish, I know. I wanted the 24 hour Wal-Mart too. Walgreen’s built here. I do not think anyone is against growth. People are against growth from the standpoint of paying for retail. I got no help starting my business here. Some of the same people that are involved in offering the land basically laughed at me when I came to borrow money to start my business because of my age. Maybe they are against growth unless it nets them a personal profit?
The studies showed that areas that had similar projects like this suffered in the long run. That information in conjunction with the corridor study saying this area would not support a Lowes and the finance assistance or bust philosophy of the developer leads me to believe these commissioners made the right decision on this issue.
HOW DO WE GET A COPY OF THIS REPORT???? HELP US AC TRAVELER
"For the person who said the Corridor Study stated we could not support a Lowe's or Home Depot... MAYBE that is why they needed the TIF to get started?"
Yes the TIF could have used to get the project started and completed. That is not the issue with the corridor study...it states that this community of 28,000 can not support a Lowes or Home Depot, this is due to the lack of population in which to draw from...intead it suggests that a store more in the size of Sutherlands be implemented. Still don't believe this? That is fine and I understand many people have hurt feelings, feelings of betrayal and feelings that the door has been closed in Ark City. There are many many studies on the negative after-effects of National Big Box retailers in small communities. I tried to stay open-minded and looked for the same studies that should be out there disputing them. I could not find any. I searched with Google, the Kansas Dept. of Commerce, asked economic professors at KU and KSU. Even went to my Alum OU to find some answers. There are no studies out the to say differently, if there were wouldn't Wal-Mart want them out to the public?
Col. Lind says the pottys are in disrepair at Woods and Bryant's. I still feel that if Zach Bryant puts in a new bathroom it is not going to affect his business base, but it will improve his marketability for future growth. Amazingly enough, Zach has found a renter for the collectable side of Bryant's. All he will say is that they will remodel, install ADA toilets and be a nice draw for downtown...who knows maybe they will. Question is, will any of those that wanted Lowe's hold a grudge for so long even this new renter will not make it, because they rent from Bryant's? Are all of you so mad that friendships will not be repaired? You have to at least understand that Zach is not to be blamed, yes he was against a TIF district, be he has been quoted that if Lowe's comes on it's own dime, then that would be fine. If your livelyhood was to be affected you would be against it too. Be honest with yourself and think like a new businessman, if you just bought a business and now it's very exsistance is in the sights to be destroyed what would you do? I happen to know many of you think it was Zach's poor decision for buying in to a crumpled up old building, and I have heard that, "he knew the condition of the bldg. before he bought..." I also know that Roger Brown of AC Industries gave Zach his "Personal Guarantee" that the Big Box Store issue was dead. One month after Bryant's was bought, here comes AC Industries out with the Big Box Proposition. Maybe it was coiencidence....
In any event, I respect each of your thoughts, hope we can heal the dispute...but moreover please do not hate the businessmen for trying to keep a level retail playing field. No, you do not have to shop in AC ever again, but at least be friendly when you see a businessman.
One more comparision:
Think of a Union Strike all of you GE workers....do you have the Guts to cross that picket line for something you believe in, or do you just call in sick that day, so you don't have to confront anyone? Well the businessmen did not have the option of calling in sick!!!
Good point. This Commission had nothing to do with any decision before April or before the election of any of the current members. In fact, they are almost completely blameless for nearly all issues, as have been all of the previous Commissioners in the past.
There really is nobody at all to blame for the state Ark City is in, because it is never any of the Commissioners' fault. It's called hiding behind the committee. The current Commission should be held accountable for this one, though.
Cessna is very similar to Lowes. They asked for a significant subsidy to locate here. Because they were turned down, they went elsewhere, and the area is financially worse off for it.
Facts are facts. Winfield was smart enough to vote it down. Are they that much smarter up there? Does it matter if it was an Eaton or a Joe Blow? Its done, so get over it!
Does the opposition deserve less time than those for a project? I take my hat off to Kurt for having the guts to go out and learn the facts of this deal.
Well the way I look at it I guess everyone will just have to contine to drive to Ponca and or Derby still like MANY do already. Afterall just look at the amount of cowley license plates at lowes in Ponca at any given time. guess thats money Ark City hasnt been getting in taxes anyway and wont continue to get no matter how that tif would have worked out. Some problems with the local retailers that cause those to go outside of town is price, avaiabity(afterall who likes to wait to order when it needs done today), and just convienence of getting what they need in one place. As for the commission, well why start doing anything different, at least they have proven to be consistant for many years by making poor economic decisions past , present, and likely future. from my understanding the city has been making similar mistakes way before any of us were even around to know about. Oh well I guess many residents couldnt afford to shop at lowes or many other stores anyway since there isnt very many jobs around here that make much over the national poverty level anyway.
Want to hear a joke? (it's not really a joke, it's true)
Ponca City ranks their second highest revenue from TOURISM.
You know where the tourists come from?
Cowley County.
I'm confused. If the facts have not been released because we did not make it to the next step how did Kurt know them? Did he have information the commission did not have? Either someone is confused, making up facts, or outright lying. Facts are facts? The whole idea of this past hearing was to move on to the next step so they could obtain and report the facts. The commission prevented the search for or presentation of any facts.
My hat goes off to Curtis Eaton. Bigger is not always better. We have to remember what built the small communities of America. The small businesses have to survive. More people need to stand up for what they beleive in. Good Job Curt!!!!
Many of you that are for this project can not seem to wrap your mind around one thing. The commissioners were not against LOWES...there were against a non-structured TIF District. Curt's facts came from several people and a lawyer that specialized in TIF. The issue was not to kill Lowes, it was to kill a nonstructured TIF in AC. We need giudelines in which a TIF can be used, not just on the federal and state level, but how do we want them used on a city level.
Quit blaming Curtis for having the balls and intestinal fortitude to question a TIF district.
We voted these commissioners in power, you asked for change and YOU GOT IT! As on person posted earlier, they did not rubber stamp this project and bow down to AC Industries and the City Manager.
Have any of you that are questioning Mr. Eaton's motives actually talked to him? I know Wayne Short has.....anyone else?
Hey Curtis Eaton, job well done!!
Hey Curt you did great, the proponents just underestimated your tenacity, determination and drive. All three make a champion in AC.
Mell, Scott and Dittie you did great too. Thanks for listening to my ENTIRE family.
LOL....Curt does not look like much. but he just pissed off the entire AC Industrys Officers and the Home National Bank
Got rid of them mafia people
I am telling everone not to shop at midwest electric, sparks musik, bryants, first entermark, graves drug,taylor drug, foster furniture,ark city clinic, vfw and american legion they all kiled lowes
Curt Eaton and his business partners and customers is ARKCITY MAFIA
Scott Margolis is a wonderful person, he has the right mind set to make available rules governing TIF. Why are you so upset that he wants to establish a set of TIF guidelines?
Now seriously, why do you think you would want a gag order on him. Can't take the truth? Unhappy that the status quo Sybrant and Brown got squished for a change? I bet you work for one of them. Or even better I bet you are one of them!!
Home National bank has some interesting business practices too by the way. Ever call and ask the rate on cd's? They want to know where you are calling from, then they qoute you a rate for that city. Ark City being the lowest APR. Tell them Bartlesville or Scottsdale and you will see a higher rate quoted to you.
I should know I used to work for HNB.
Why is it HNB NEVER has anyone that will wait on you? Talk about not paying much, even Wal-Mart is higher pay. Mr. Brown, come to Ark City and explain yourself please. The Scottsdale employees make 6.34 an hour starting wage more than AC employees.
Hey if you wanted a big gun all ya had to do was hire on too. then put the name on the agenda to speak.
CURT EATON for City Commission!!
Zach Bryany and Roger Sparks for City Commission too....LOL
They know how to get the job done!
Question:
How many commissioners does it take to sell a vaccuum cleaner?
Answer:
All of them. They are all responsible for the City.
Quit fighting!
I would say just one...he brings deals that suck to the table.
Ohhhhhhh now that is funny.NOT
WHO EVER THINKS THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT SHOP AT ALL THOSE STORES SHOULD LEARN HOW TO SPELL THEM.
For the person telling us about dealing with NON STRUCTURED TIF - How can it possibly be structured until a proposal is made? This step was just to set up a zone to make it available, NOT to use it. The next step was to hear a proposal and look at setting up the TIF. Maybe it would work and maybe not, but the powers that control this city decided they didn't even want the possibility or even to let the facts out. Why would anyone want to prevent at least looking into it? My guess is there is something to hide, but they could have entirely different personal reasons.
Why does there always have to be a suspicion of a "hidden agenda"? I'm getting weary of all the bologna about we didn't get to see the special goods in the proposal at the next step. I'm a conspiracy theorist as much as the next person, but come on. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the whole thing just stunk and it might as well get tossed since it didn't pass the smell test? Why waste more time messing around with the deal when it was a dud from the get-go? No, we won't get to see it, but we will get to move on and get things done.
i guess the merchants around here do control this town,that really sucks for the whole city
I can't believe this whole thing...Haves and have nots....haves didn't win..wahh wahh wahh....pacifier please....
Although I would be more inclined to have Lowe’s and the accompanying businesses in the retail mall come to town on their own dime, we have to do something different if we want different results. Keep doing what you’ve been doing and you’ll keep getting what you’ve been getting. Nothing!
The City Commissioners do not appear to have a vision of growth for our community. The city commissioners are elected to help improve our stagnant economy. To do this, they must accomplish a few things.
Promote economic growth - Strike One
Increase revenue for our city - Strike Two
Attract new businesses to our city - Strike Three
Sit down, you just struck out.
This decision seems to have been made before the newest commissioners were even voted into office. Each one of them owns or operates a business. They know how this works. It’s just another example of the buddy system. Some of their high powered friends don’t want the competition, so they voted it down.
After the Tuesday debacle, I spoke with one of the City Commissioners personally and was told some very interesting things.
1) The tax TIF would NOT have given the Big Box Store itself a tax break but would have been applied to the cost for the other tenants in the accompanying mall. So, the majority of the construction would have been at Lowe’s cost. Now, if we do get a Lowe’s later without the TIF, the city will have to foot the whole bill of annexation which will in turn increase our taxes. IE: extending city utilities, roads, storm drainage, trash, sewer, etc. So instead of having a increase in the city budget of $2 - $3 million to cover the TIF, it would be more in the range of $8 - $10 million.
2) This commissioner was under the impression that one of the commissioners who voted no, was doing so just to keep the vote close. They were then blindsided by the fact that our Mayor also voted no unexpectedly. Why are we playing games?
3) The mayor stated that the majority of the e-mail she received was negative concerning the Big Box Store. While the commissioner that I spoke with stated that this comment was false. 100% of the e-mail was positive for moving forward.
Combine that with the fact that the study the Sid Regnier referenced was 75% for a positive vote, the Traveler online poll is currently 75% positive and of the 31 people who gave a decisive opinion at the commission meeting, there were 19 who were positive. That’s 61% for moving forward. Time and time again the facts show the community as a whole wants this project to move forward. At least look at all the facts before you shoot the messenger. Please keep in mind that one of the speakers was the spouse of Mr. Margolis and she seemed neutral to the idea. Was this because she didn’t want to tip Scott’s hand or because she had no idea which way he was going to vote?
With this in mind, how can the Mayor say she was voting the “will of the people”? The will of which people? Very interesting information. Kinda makes you wonder doesn’t it?
This commission could have put a feather in their cap by helping to bring a national retailer to our “little town”. This would have been the initial spark that started the fire of economic growth. Growth brings about more growth. If a company were looking to build a new manufacturing facility somewhere in the Midwest, a small town with the courage to open up a new Lowe’s might be an attractive place to go. Don’t get me wrong. We have seen some building going on. Pizza Hut, KFC and Sonic all upgraded their facilities within the past year. Walgreens will be opening soon. But how many jobs did these construction projects create? The restaurants likely didn’t create more than a handful of jobs because they were existing businesses.
While I admit to knowing little to nothing about a TIF, I do know that many of the businesses in Ark City get a tax abatement for property improvements, additions and major construction. Is this not similar? Creekstone received a huge tax break on the City’s dime but there was no where near this much complaint because the beef packing industry did not provide any competition with existing businesses. What kind of tax abatement did Mr. Margolis’ company get? I recall hearing 10 years of tax deferment. Seems like a double standard.
The commissioners had a duty to go to the next step so they could fully investigate this opportunity. The three that voted this down betrayed the community by not listening to all the facts. While I realize it may very well cause hardship on some of the existing businesses in Ark City, wasn’t the point of this to improve Ark City as a whole? Not just your pal down the street?
When you reside in a community that has gone stagnant and wants to grow, you don’t turn away opportunities. We’ve turned down Lowes and other mall occupants that were yet to be named, we turned down Cessna and a potential of thousands of industrial good paying jobs. Winfield also turned them down. This coming on the heels of Winfield saying no to a Harley Davidson plant going in the old Binney & Smith building. How many thousands of jobs did they walk away from. Cowley County must have several feet because we keep shooting ourselves in them time and time again.
It was said at the meeting that we would prefer industrial jobs when compared to retail, but this is the opportunity that is currently presented to us. They acted as though if they went forward with this, it would negate any other future opportunities. While in fact, it should open the door for more. Large companies want to go where there is a growing economy and a positive attitude toward industry and retail. To the developers, we just showed them we have none of the above. Word will get around that Ark City is not the place to go if you want to build and our population and workforce will continue to decline as it has steadily over the last 20 years. Some people don’t like change even if it means you must take 2 steps to the left and go through the door instead of just banging your head into the wall.
HERE HERE! Very well said!!
Why stop there! Curtis Eaton for County Commission!!! I don't own a business but I'm pro-local-business. I plan to continue to shop at midwest electric, sparks music, bryants, first entermark, graves drug, taylor drug, foster furniture, ark city clinic, vfw and american legion, heck even home national. If you get this upset about the current Lowes proposal demise, you really need to get a life... and contemplate what is really important for your community. Grow up! Support your neighbors, many who own businesses in your home town. I live in Winfield, and think those that had the cahonas to make a stand against unfair business practices are who I want leading my community. Not some whinny uneducated consumer who is pissed they have to drive to Wichita or Ponca just to shop at a Lowes, which by the way doesn't do much in the way of adding middle class jobs to the market. Growth is always wanted, but it has to be logical and measured. Why hurt others just to get what you want? Why hurt your whole community? Very immature and downright illiterate when it comes to community planning and management. The Ark City commission did the right thing and is protecting its people, who of which voted for them to do this very thing. I'm convinced they weighed the pros and cons and made a wise decision, considering how the project was proposed. Lowes will happen when it makes sense. No sooner, no later. Capisci! Oops, did I say that? Now you're going to think I belong to the mafia. Well maybe I do, but it's not Curt's. Heh. :-)
Hey Curt! The "(Sicilian name)" family sends its condolences. :-) Any how, we in Winfield support Curt and those that make a stand against ill-advised progress. Be happy your downtown is still buzzing with business, unlike many other small towns. My point is look at the big picture. How will it benefit and how will it harm Ark City? I think you all know the answer. For those who can’t see the big picture draw a t-chart and fill in the pros and cons. Heh. And in closing my guess is that those that are posting hateful posts about the local business owners that made a noble stand are either internet nerds munching Cheetos who know little about running a business or a handful of powerful business men with deep pockets that were hoping to benefit financially by having a Lowes stake their claim in Ark City. So ~ all you ark city citizens don’t be fooled.
By the way, I was just joking about Curt and the mafia. Anyone that makes that claim is an imbecile! Curt is a great guy and an asset to Ark City. Ciao!
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