I would urge those commenting on the blog and other Traveler blogs to please be respectful and fair. I know this big box debate has emotions running deep, but I try to always start with the assumption that people's motives and intentions are good, even if I have strong disagreements.
Thanks
A novice's take on the local, state and national political scenes
Me
David Allen
- Politics 101
- All politics is local -Tip O'Neil
25 comments:
Although this one is probably toast, TIFs are being used as a normal course of doing business development across Kansas. Just because the idea is new (to Ark City) doesn't mean that it is a bad thing.
TIFs are evaluated with a cost benefit analysis to determine whether or not they create a financial benefit to the taxing entity and whether they create new development which would not otherwise occur. The CBA is done by evaluating a feasibility study and the cost of the analysis is paid for by the TIF applicant in the form of filing fees.
Rather than freaking out and voting on emotion, Ark City should put in place a mechanism for dealing with TIFs because, if Ark City expects to grow, TIFs won't be going away.
Whether it is a B&B theater in Chanute or a Kohls in Salina, they are the way developers are doing business today.
I can only imagine what the developer thought at his reaction from the Ark City Commission.
There was an interesting article 2 days ago in the Salina paper:
Salina Journal
Salina City Commissioner Abner Perney's change of heart might have changed the retail landscape of South Ninth Street.
At the Dec. 10 city commission meeting, Perney and Mayor Alan Jilka voted against a proposal to use tax-increment financing to bring a Kohl's department store to Salina. But what a difference a week -- and some "group therapy" -- can make.
Monday's meeting agenda called for a second-reading vote on the Kohl's matter, which almost always is a formality that follows the prior week's vote on first reading. But Perney asked to speak just before the vote and explained why he had changed his mind, turning the previous week's 3-2 vote into a 4-1 decision.
"Salina shoppers, I'm here to flip-flop," Perney said, drawing applause from some of the 60 people who attended the meeting. "I've really spent a lot of time studying this issue the last couple of months, and especially the last week. I've been to group therapy sessions; I've polled everyone I've seen. As it turns out, as near as I can tell, every female Salinan under the age of 50 is 100 percent for this.
"Part of (what came out of) my group therapy is that I'm a little out of touch with the shoppers of Salina."
Well said Salina commissioner, I wish we could count on our commissioners to re-think their decision. But, we all know that isn't going to happen.
It is interesting that in Salina, shoppers are represented too, not just developers and businesses.
The sad thing is, we will never know. The commissioners killed the project before hearing the proposal. And I think I heard that even after they hear the proposal they could still negotiate it. Not 100% sure on that but thats what it sounded like.
tranquil sounds good, but it doesn't solve the problem. The commissioners rejected what the people wanted. How are we supposed to react when we have over 3 years remaining of people who will not work for us?
I have lost all respect and faith in them. I'll never know if I can trust them to do what the people want again. How can we stay calm and tranquil not knowing what they might decide to do next?
The comissioners killed a TIF district. they in no way killed Lowe's, Home depot, Sutherlands, Best Buy or any other retailer from building here.
KUDOS to Scott for having the fore thought to have specific guidlines in place before enacting a TIF district.
Ya know that is true, Mr. Margolis did say that he want to enact guidleines and rules for using TIF in Ark City.
Ok, maybe we are being to hard on these commissioners??
What kind of rules are there to enact. Seems easy to me, just put in a TIFF and they build? How would that affect me. ?
Is it possible for the TRAVELER to get a copy of the Corridor Plan and post page C-8?..Someone out there keeps saying the plan stated we could not keep a Lowes in business....THAT HAS TO BE A LIE!!!!!!
This is the person and what they wrote....sounds like total BS.
""For the person who said the Corridor Study stated we could not support a Lowe's or Home Depot... MAYBE that is why they needed the TIF to get started?"
Yes the TIF could have used to get the project started and completed. That is not the issue with the corridor study...it states that this community of 28,000 can not support a Lowes or Home Depot, this is due to the lack of population in which to draw from...intead it suggests that a store more in the size of Sutherlands be implemented. Still don't believe this? That is fine and I understand many people have hurt feelings, feelings of betrayal and feelings that the door has been closed in Ark City. There are many many studies on the negative after-effects of National Big Box retailers in small communities. I tried to stay open-minded and looked for the same studies that should be out there disputing them. I could not find any. I searched with Google, the Kansas Dept. of Commerce, asked economic professors at KU and KSU. Even went to my Alum OU to find some answers. There are no studies out the to say differently, if there were wouldn't Wal-Mart want them out to the public?
Col. Lind says the pottys are in disrepair at Woods and Bryant's. I still feel that if Zach Bryant puts in a new bathroom it is not going to affect his business base, but it will improve his marketability for future growth. Amazingly enough, Zach has found a renter for the collectable side of Bryant's. All he will say is that they will remodel, install ADA toilets and be a nice draw for downtown...who knows maybe they will. Question is, will any of those that wanted Lowe's hold a grudge for so long even this new renter will not make it, because they rent from Bryant's? Are all of you so mad that friendships will not be repaired? You have to at least understand that Zach is not to be blamed, yes he was against a TIF district, be he has been quoted that if Lowe's comes on it's own dime, then that would be fine. If your livelyhood was to be affected you would be against it too. Be honest with yourself and think like a new businessman, if you just bought a business and now it's very exsistance is in the sights to be destroyed what would you do? I happen to know many of you think it was Zach's poor decision for buying in to a crumpled up old building, and I have heard that, "he knew the condition of the bldg. before he bought..." I also know that Roger Brown of AC Industries gave Zach his "Personal Guarantee" that the Big Box Store issue was dead. One month after Bryant's was bought, here comes AC Industries out with the Big Box Proposition. Maybe it was coiencidence....
In any event, I respect each of your thoughts, hope we can heal the dispute...but moreover please do not hate the businessmen for trying to keep a level retail playing field. No, you do not have to shop in AC ever again, but at least be friendly when you see a businessman.
One more comparision:
Think of a Union Strike all of you GE workers....do you have the Guts to cross that picket line for something you believe in, or do you just call in sick that day, so you don't have to confront anyone? Well the businessmen did not have the option of calling in sick!!!"
HOW DO WE GET A COPY OF THIS REPORT????
Interesting. A population of 28,000 won't support a Lowes.
Ponca City has 25,919. I guess they can't support a Lowes.
I would like to say that at least these commisioners are not just the city manager's robots as others before them were under Mr. Freeland. And, this city is used to the way Mr. Freeland did things, which many times were not by the book, by the law, or by anything else, it was just however Curt Freeland decided he wanted it done-he gave out way to many favors, was a yes man (that way he never had to look bad), and looked the other way when need be. Not just our city, but all cities, need to stop giving in to big business demands and then we wouldn't have these type of problems to begin with, and I applaud our city for saying NO BREAKS to the big guy and to heck with all the little people. Our water & sewer bill is going up again, and will continue to do so until 2010 or 2011, didn't see a break for us there did ya?! But, you want to see your city give the big guys with all the money breaks? That's why your water & sewer bill keeps going up, because of breaks already given and still being given to big business! (if you doubt that, just ask the 'big business' like Kan Pak and Creekstone what kinda breaks they got and are continuing to get!!!) Lowe's can build here anytime, I love shopping there, but they can afford to do it without financial help just like the little guys have to. Add it up people, you are already giving over half of what you make every year in taxes, IT HAS GOT TO STOP SOMETIME, how much more of your hard earned money are you willing to fork over? Of course, if you are not a middle or lower class earner, you can get most of that back DUE TO TAX BREAKS, DEDUCTIONS, ETC-look at all the big business that gets out of income taxes every year due to that. So, Lowe's could probably regain some of their "losses" in that fashion I would think. I will vote no every time for anything that will raise my taxes, even the upcoming school issue, because I can't afford to fork anymore over to big business and their big government partners! I get to keep half of what I earn in this day and age, and there is something wrong with that picture. It would be easier for them to just knock on your door every week and demand half your pay for THE KING, whoops, I mean for democracy???
I just discovered that the downtown businesses get a 95% tax rebate for any repairs or improvements to their property. This money goes right back into their pocket. The big box would have got a 100% rebate but they didn't get any of it, it all had to go back into the loan for the street and utilities. This is the level playing field a few of the downtown businesses were whining about. I'm betting that the commissioners knew that too.
Interesting. A population of 28,000 won't support a Lowes.
Ponca City has 25,919. I guess they can't support a Lowes.
Hey the guy says it was your study, so prove differently, amazing no one has a copy of this study. All of the commissioners have a copy ask them for crying out loud. You all followed the developer without researching anything....sounds like SOUR GRAPES!!
I have to agree with that statement. Curtis Eaton did not know and hired a specialist in the field, Mr Heaven. All he said at the meetings was how a TIF was used traditionally. Yes it was legal to use it on the Enterprise area, was it a good idea? The State of Kansas did not think so and abolished enterprise areas in 1992 because they did not work as hoped. And the businessmen downtown did not think so, moreover the majority of the commissioners did not think so either.
The commissioner all have copies of the U.S. 77 Corridor Study, the latest copy is November 2007. And it will be dated on the front cover.
Traveler if you want to see it ask a Commissioner. If you want to see the part about not supporting a Lowes it is on page c-8 in the back Appendix.
The tax break exists, but many don't use it because the improvements are then tacked onto the tax valuation at the end of the process. Tax appraisal on downtown businesses is very aggressive.
To say that the downtown businesses don't have access to a program similar to a TIF is incorrect. Whether they choose to use it is another matter.
On a $30,000 unimproved building in Ark City, you can expect to pay $1500 to $1800 in taxes per year. Same building in Newkirk is about $200 per year.
Where a TIF and the downtown rebate goes toward reimbursing out of pocket expenses, First Intermark got an abatement. An abatement means no taxes are paid during the 10 year period.
Tax abatements are commonly used to bring in new industry or improve old ones. Almost all of the industries in the area are under a tax abatement.
To say that Lowes would be getting a special treatment in a TIF that is not available one way or another to others in Ark City is pure hogwash and the city officials know it.
While it is true about the population of Ponca, it draws from around the area too. Yes, including Ark City too. Our entire area to draw from is 28,000 as proven from the Corridor study. Ponca's entire area to draw from is estimated 116,342. This is estimated because the last study was 2002. (Information obtained from OSU Economic Studies and Housing)
These are not apples to apples figures. In the same light there are 99,000 people within 40 miles of Ark City.
I'm sure the Ponca City numbers include Stillwater which is not a logical draw.
I would imagine that Ark City could pull in at least Cowley County which is 37,000+.
Our local advertisers claim to reach abou 100,000 by each of the radio stations and the Traveler puts out the BORDER once a month to 37,000 HOMES. I would assume that our market is approximately 100,000 people though obviously not all in our county. We also draw from Chataqua, Sumner, and even Kay County in Oklahoma. Maybe it just depends on who wants to read the figures.
Curtis Eaton HIRED an expert. If you go out and hire an expert especially an attorney he is going to support your particular beliefs since you are paying for his expert opinion. What did you expect the guy to say about the TIF?
Assumptions are hard to prove. The 28000 was all of Cowley County as stated in the document. Stillwater is not included in the Ponca City numbers. Advertising numbers are an estimate based on radios 65 mile diameter of coverage. As for the Traveler, we would have to call Micah Mitchell the advertising manager.
So quit guessing and do your own research. This guessing is part of the problem. Read the US 77 report, contact OSU and ask for the report. Hell do something other than Bitch, Moan and Speculate.
It's easy to claim that solid numbers are assumptions and muddy the facts with doubt, so I did some research as suggested.
There are 4 radio stations in Ark City:
KSOK AM
KSOK FM (Winfield)
KYQQ FM
KACY FM
KAXR FM
Based on their FCC licensed signal strengths, KAXR, KACY and KSOK FM cover about 100,000 people each. KYQQ covers about 450,000 and although licensed to Ark City has nothing to do with the town. KAXR also has no Ark City offices.
According to my conversation today with the FCC, the population is never based on an estimated 65 miles, as was stated.
The population of Cowley County is as follows:
1890 34,478
1900 30,156
1910 31,790
1920 35,155
1930 40,903
1940 38,139
1950 36,905
1960 37,861
1970 35,012
1980 36,824
1990 36,915
2000 36,291
This is a Traveller blog, so it should be easy enough to determine the distribution of the papers. At around 2.6 persons per household, 100,000 seems to add up with the 37,000 houses distribution.
If the corridor study says the population of Cowley County is 28,000 people, then the corridor study is wrong.
Ok the corridor study is wrong then, so that means the 27 million of leakage must be wrong too.
Where is it right, so I can edit it accordlingly and make the profile fit?
Oh, nevermind I will make this my last post. You win, Merry Christmas!
I think the 28,000 people and the $27 million are both just the 77 corridor from Winfield south to the state line. It seems that there wer 36,000 people and $37 million leakage for the county. There are a lot of figures and a lot of considerations. I guess it don't matter much now.
He said to research the facts, which is what I did.
The population of Cowley is about 36,000 and the market area is about 100,000. Not too different from Ponca, which currently supports a Lowes.
I agree with "this is getting old!!!" that misinformation presented as facts doesn't help the discussion.
I'm sure the 28,000 population applies to the corridor only rather than all of Cowley County.
Although it is a moot point, even though Ark City has a corridor study, Lowes would do a much more in-depth and presumably more precise study to find out if the area would support their store.
You know what they say about "arguing on the internet" and "blogic".
Not trying to "win".
Merry Christmas to all.
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