When will good folks of Christian faith come to understand that this country was founded by people who were mostly Christian (not all of em) but is not a Christian Nation, in the sense that government does not follow any specific religious doctrine or text?
Senate votes for 10 Commandments monument
RON JENKINS
Associated Press Writer
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The Oklahoma Senate voted overwhelmingly Monday to allow a Ten Commandments monument on the Capitol grounds after heated debate over good and evil and political expediency.
Sen. Randy Brogdon, R-Owasso, said his bill merely tried to recognize the Ten Commandments as a historical document that formed the basis for the country's laws.
"It's like the Liberty Bell," Brogdon said.
Sen. Judy Eason McIntyre, however, charged that the measure was a political ploy aimed at getting Brogdon elected governor, playing to "uneducated people" who "do not understand anything other than wedge issues like this.
"If it's not God, if it's not gays, if it's not guns, they don't care," she said.
After Senate Democratic leader Charlie Laster spoke to McIntyre, she said: "I apologize, Sen. Brogdon, for calling your name. But I still say this is a bad bill and the intent is very, very mean."
She said it put the state's "backward thinking" on display for the rest of the country.
Brogdon, who officially announced his candidacy for governor at the state GOP convention on Saturday, said he did not know how to respond to the allegations of McIntyre, D-Tulsa, and Sen. Constance Johnson, D-Oklahoma City.
Johnson said she found the intent of the bill "very offensive" and "hypocritical." She said she had not been able to get a hearing on a proposed monument honoring blacks' contribution to the state's political history.
Brogdon said McIntyre knows he is not a hypocrite and expressed dismay he had been referred to as having "mean" and "evil" intent.
He later said he was "tired of being called a racist on the Senate floor," accusing McIntyre and Johnson, who are black, of "hysteria" and interjecting race into the arguments over the bill.
"We're talking about the Ten Commandments, for crying out loud, and they brought up race. That's quite a stretch," he said.
McIntyre and Johnson said Barack Obama, the country's first black president, has been held up to ridicule in Oklahoma through legislative resolutions and politically inspired demonstrations.
"If we're not careful, we'll have another civil war," McIntyre said.
Sen. Jim Wilson, D-Tahlequah, said the law is "obviously unconstitutional," despite arguments the Supreme Court has upheld a similar Texas law. Wilson said "the facts are much different" in Texas, where the Ten Commandments was located in a monument park for four decades.
Sen. Tom Adelson, D-Tulsa, voted against the bill, saying it violated the Oklahoma Constitution.
Adelson said that as a Jewish person, he is offended by efforts to "secularize" the Ten Commandments.
"It is clearly a religious symbol; I would not have it referred to any other way," he said.
Sen. Bill Brown, R-Broken Arrow, said the Ten Commandments all involve moral issues that can guide the nation, apart from any religious aspect.
"I think our country can stand and live on moral issues," he said.
The bill must return to the House and Brogdon indicated it would go to a joint conference committee.
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11 comments:
Try to run a newspaper in a Muslim or Communist country then come back & whine.
DID
YOU KNOW? As
you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you
can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each
one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view .
it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!
DID
YOU KNOW?
As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten
Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.
DID
YOU KNOW?
As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the
Supreme Court judges sit,
a display of the Ten Commandments!
DID YOU KNOW?
There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the
Federal
Buildings
and Monuments in Washington,
D.C.
DID YOU KNOW?
James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made
the following statement:
"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind
for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
DID YOU KNOW?
Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of
our country said:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by
religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
DID YOU KNOW?
Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.
DID YOU KNOW?
Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox
churches in the colonies.
DID
YOU KNOW?
Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of
interpreting the law would begin making law . an oligarchy;
the rule of few over many.
DID YOU KNOW?
The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:
"Americans should select and prefer Christians as
their rulers."
AND:A marble relief of Moses hangs on the Chamber, of the US
House of Representatives
__________________________
How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done
for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional? I guess I'm missing something. Tell me again why America is NOT a Christian nation. It's not a Muslim nation. It's not a Hindu nation. (the Muslims & Hindus BTW have no shame in telling that they have a "Muslim" or "Hindu" nation) Doesn't mean all Americans are Christians. No one's trying to force anyone to be a Christian. One would think all Americans would be thankful for our Christian roots. Try doing what you do on a daily basis in Saudia Arabia. I don't think you'd last long there, as their options are "convert or be killed". I don't follow your logic here.
Religion has NO business in government. If you believe and honor your religion privately, fine, but it should not be forced upon others.
duh, it's Olahoma, it's not like it is Rhode Island or something. I could of told you how this was going to turn out.
Anonymous at 8:17PM:
I will tell you again: America is not a Christian nation. It is a nation made up of mostly Christians.
Google Article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli. Do you know what had to happen to get this ratified into law? Now try to say that America was founded by Christians...
DID YOU KNOW?
The Supreme Court building you refer to was built in 1935? 159 years after the Declaration of Independence.
DID YOU KNOW?
"In God We Trust" was adopted as our national motto in 1956? 180 years after the Declaration of Independence.
DID YOU KNOW?
James Madison also said the following? "And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together (James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822). He also said, "An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government. (James Madison in a letter to Livingston, 1822). This one says a lot, "It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov." (James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822) And let's see, this one sums up his stance, "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." (Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785). Should I go on with James Madison?
DID YOU KNOW?
Patrick Henry, following the Revolution, supported proposals in the Virginia legislature that would have essentially established the Episcopal church in that state. The proposed measures would have "incorporated" the Episcopal clergy, and would have provided financial support to the church through tax levies. These bills were ultimately defeated, due largely to the efforts of James Madison and his allies.
DID YOU KNOW?
The stat you cited for the religion of the Constitution fonders is their church affiliation? Their beliefs were those of Deists, which has nothing to do with their affiliation.
OKLAHOMA CITY — The Oklahoma Senate passed a measure Monday that would allow for construction of a 10 Commandments monument on the Capitol grounds.
House Bill 1330 passed by a vote of 37-9. The measure heads to a conference committee.
Sen. Randy Brogdon, R-Owasso, is the Senate author. Rep. Mike Ritze, R-Broken Arrow, is the House author.
Private funds would be used to construct the monument.
However, the Attorney General's Office, which receives state funding, would be required to defend the measure if there is a legal challenge.
"We are going to spend a lot of money on this and lose," said Sen. Jim Wilson, D-Tahlequah.
Wilson said the state constitution bans spending money on religious items.
_____________________
Well, at least on this one issue I tend to agree with David. The United States offers freedom OF, and freedom FROM religion. This is a clear violation of the seperation of Church and State. I hope someone challenges it.
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded upon fables and mythologies. The Christian God is a being of terrific character -- cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust..."
-- Thomas Jefferson
All I know is that I BEILIEVE AND TRUST IN GOD in my house !!!!!! What about yours and they cannot stop that
I would like to also rebut the anonymous poster at 8:17 pm.
Click here to see Snopes research on the email that has been circulating since 2006 (of which the poster cut and pasted). It puts it into proper perspective.
The original email is displayed there and you can see how people like anonymous have changed it in attempt to make more sense, which really isn't possible.
One thing that was funny about this is that the alleged "law givers" that the email claims to be facing Moses in the center are not actually facing Moses (who is not holding the 10 Commandments like it says). The sculpter, H.A. McNeil, says these figures are "exemplars of law givers and not religious figures." This statement was also made by the Supreme Court in 2003 when they ruled on appeals made on the decision to remove monuments of the 10 Commandments. This sculpture was also described by the sculptor and the Supreme Court as depicting three Eastern civilizations in which our laws were derived from, "personified" by Moses (Jewish), Confucious (Buddhism), and Solon (Ancient Greek Polytheist).
Christians may also be shocked to know that the Prophet Muhammad is represented inside the Supreme Courtroom on the wall, rather than the 10 Commandments like the poster wants you to believe. Muhammad appears on the wall in one of the two friezes that depict the worlds great law givers. The tablets that the email says represents the 10 Commandments, according to the sculptor, represent the first ten ammendments to the Constitution, otherwise know as the Bill of Rights.
It's all out there to see by anybody who walks by. Do the people that circulate these emails know that? So, to the Anonymous poster at 8:17PM, I will also tell you that America is not a "Christian nation," but rather a nation made up mostly of Christians. If it makes one feel better to believe the myth, then so be it....but it's still a myth.
I googled Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.In order to be ratified as law, this was read on the senate floor and passed unanimously (only one of three ever) and was published throughout the land with absolutely no public outrage. The President (Adams) signed it into law.
Now, the question is...If there were all these people that "founded" the US to be a Christian nation, how did this happen? Could it be that they might have been Christian men that believed religion should stay in the Church? That the church should have no part of Government? That makes sense...it is what is taught outside of churches and supported by secular evidence.
Joshua 24:15 NIV) "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
(Romans 13:1) "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities , for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
I can't speak for anyone but myself and my house. As for me, I serve the Lord God and his Son Jesus. I believe that my Government has no authority other than that which God has established. I do think we have a freedom to worship in the manner as suits us. I do think that we live in a country that doesn't dictate that we will be executed if we aren't one religion or another. THAT is seperation of church and state. And unless every single member of ever single government organization is atheist (That can also be a religion by definition) then our Government is integrated with the Church.
Isn't society better off with the last 6 commandments vs living without them ?
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