Ray at commonsensepolitics takes issue with me calling Roeder and his terrorist brethern who justify killing abortion providers, Wingnuts of the Week. I think we've had this discussion before, but it's worth noting the definition of terrorism.
Here's dictionary.com
"The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes."
This is pretty much an exact fit for Roeder and others trying to wipe about abortion through murder/violence.
My post could be read, I'll admit, to suggest that I called anybody who believed his actions were justified, a terrorist. I did not mean this and probably should have phrased it better. There's a clear difference between supporting or condoning terrorist actions and committing an act of terrorism.
That said, those who do condone or justify what Roeder did walk a fine line. Words choice and language mean something and can create an atmosphere where wingnuts fly loose.
So...
Roeder and those who kill abortion providers to stop the practice commit a terrorist act.
Those who support such activity, but don't actually do it, are not "terrorists" but sure are contemptible.
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12 comments:
David,
Terrorism is a difficult word to define, to say the least.
Dictionary.com mentions nothing of terrorism involving the planned attacks of noncombatant citizens or at least the blatant disregard of said citizens.
You argue that Roeder's move was political? Roeder didn't target a pro-abortion government offical.
He shot a specific person for a particular reason. Murderer, Yes. Terrorist, No.
When I was in 7th grade I was coerced out of the answers to our math homework at school with threats of violence. I started making two copies of my homework. A copy for me and an almost right copy for them. To this day, I am willing to bet that these math terrorists are algebra deficient.
And you are saying that all the victims in Tower 1 and Tower 2 as well as the surrounding area were government officials.
Are you saying those folks in grocery stores or entertainment places such as night clubs are government officials?
Were the commuters riding on the commuter train in Spain all government officials. Terrorists attack governments or political adversaries by attacking its constituents.
You would have to be 3rd generation of confined to a cave to pretend that Roe v Wade is not a politically polarizing issue in America.
Roeder’s action was intended not only to murder Tiller but to inflict a fear of similar fate to anyone who might consider continuing offering such services.
Ideologists always tend to go over board to defend lives by taking lives. They have no balance and rather insert themselves in the role they think God should take.
When God doesn't step in a make everyone behave in the manner preferred by the zealot, the terrorist, in their own delusional perception of godliness, takes matters into their own hands.
It's not that difficult. Terrorism: Seeking to invoke "Terror" into the minds of others by extremist acts in order to effect a narrow ideology and distorted reality.
Look, I understand that using a word like terrorist is easy to blanket over people who kill others. But are we to say that all gang bangers are terrorists? How about when John Kerry reffered to our Soldiers as terrorists. Maybe it is just my opinion, but the word terrorist would apply to people like the unibomber, Timothy McViegh (not sure how to spell his last name), and all of the radical muslims that are committing acts of terrorism every day. These are clear cut and well defined terrorists. Roeder is a murderer plain and simple. I don't support the people that want abortion providers to die because of what they do, but you also have to understand that most people against abortion believe that abortion is murder. I am one of them. I am totaly against abortion,and not for religious reasons either. In life, we all reap what we sow, and although Dr. Tiller's death was a murder, he knew what he was doing was risky and dangerous. Roeder will face justice. Does he deserve the death penalty? I think so. Clearly this was a premeditated murder and the law should dole out the appropriate punishment.
Ray, why limit that indictment to the word terrorist.
We use labels as the first communications indicator that we are shutting our minds to any new concept.
It's probably the most disappointing characteristic of people in these United States of America. Even you, Ray, use the term liberal to immediately discount any words that simply do not align with your own political ideology.
What plagues us is not dem or rep. What plagues is that we simply have lost the maturity required as an advanced nation to hear the best idea and stop labeling it.
Back to terrorist behavior and Tiller/Roeder; Roeder's impetuous act was fueled by years of extremist dialog from both sides.
The insistence on calling a medical procedure murder (when it factually the exercising, within the bounds of the law, one's free will) is labeled Pro-Life.
The defense of the act - both that of an expectant mother and of a practicing physician to voluntarily abort a pregnancy (even when they choose to ignore or enable completely irresponsible behavior and disregard for the sanctity of life) is labeled Pro Choice.
What has evolved from the pre-pubescent level of argument is unwillingness for either side to concede that there is some wrong in either view. I am not conceding that either is right in any point.
I personally think proponents on either sides are both misguided zealots. So too was Roeder and it is what drove him to action that sought to instill fear in any physician, and their family, who might try to establish a similar practice. Remember, someone had already sought to intimidate him by shooting him. Concluding that torture did not work, Roeder found that only a savage act to take his life would be the remedy.
So, terrorist? Murderer? The child like name calling continues. We have grown to be (although not maturing in that growth) a nation of people who argue of this nature.
Well, your feet stink. Well your breath stinks worse than my feet. Oh yeah, well your clothes are ugly. So what, your mama's ugly. Nobody likes you!
Does too.
Does not.
Does too.
Does not.
Maybe you follow my point (perhaps not). There ain't a whole lot of difference between that exchange expectantly heard on a children's playground and the pointless, thoughtless, substance-less jibberish that flows out of the mouths and minds of Americans living in the USA these days.
Maybe the best thing that could happen is for one side or the other to take their ball and go home. Second best would be for someone's mother to tell them it's time to come inside and take a nap.
Labels! Ughhhhh!
By your definition, Tiller himself was a terrorist.
Interesting. Ideologs protecting lives by taking them. Hmm. Sounds like Roe v. Wade all over again. So are we to say that killing a child to defend a womans rights sounds more logical? Either way you look at it, Roeder is a murderer. I think the problem here is that everyone has a different view of what an actual terrorist is. Most believe that those who attacked us on 911 are the true terrorists. That was the bar set on that horrific day. But to say that killing for political means only makes you a terrorist would lump most pro choicers into the same category.
Now to the other who speaks directly to me. I enjoy our conversations by the way. On the issue of abortion and what motives roeder had when he murdered Dr. Tiller. When it comes to abortion you have pro life and pro choice. When it comes to labels or name calling I don't like it either, but when it comes to right and wrong, one must stand on the side for which their convictions dictate. To step away from the arguement and to say both are wrong and both are right is to disengage and become apathetic to the issue. We are all like eggs, we either have to hatch or rot. We can't sit on the fence all of our lives. I to believe that the best idea should always be considered rather it be republican or democrat. The problem is that today we have to many disconnected people in congress. And thats our fault for not holding those in washington accountable for the actions they partake in. Maybe I could stop using the word liberal as a bad term, but when I describe those for whom I disagree with, It is easier to lump them all of them together in the same tent for which they voluntarily serve. They call themselves liberals, democrats, or progressives so I think calling them for what they choose to call themselves is a fair practice.
Our brave men and women of the armed forces are over seas killing for political reasons. Would you call them terrorists? Try it, and see how quickly you and your paper are ran out of town. People have the common sense to know the difference between a murderer and a terrorist. Simple definitions do not always cut it.
I guess I am lost. here. There is absolutely no politcal motive behnind a woman deciding to terminate a pregnancy. What political ideal could they be pursuing? We chose to make it political and force a woman into a public limelight during one of the most intimate moments possible. That's really not political. That's tacky!
Our soldiers are not trying to intimidate anyone. Neither is it their intent to press a political agenda. The politics happen in congressional chambers where nary a gunshot is fired.
One demands that the bar for terrorism was set in NY, NY at the WTC. I suppose the good folks of OklahomaCity may beg to differ. Again, I hazard a guess that those innocent citizens in night clubs who lost their lives to covert attacks (bombs exploding amid crowds of young innocent) or even the soldiers on marine bases where antagonist drove explosive laden trucks through the perimeter walls might feel they too were victims of terrorism.
The argument that Roeder's act was terrorism rests solely in the fact that like minded people have made it a political war ground. We moved from freedom to disagree or be unpopular to reducing women to human incubators void of personal decision.
And, because the folks will not concede that, though the choice may be distasteful to them personally, it is a choice that any woman should make (and live with the consequences thereof) Mr. Roeder thought it sound behavior to simply eschew the laws of the land, regarding murder and abortion and right to responsibly bear arms, and send a message that anyone who disagreed with his belief and who acts contrary to his views on procreation is not fit to live on his earth.
Problem is, terrorists forget that it's really not their earth nor their choice to decide who gets to live in (on) it.
Phwew!!
New topic, please!
"We moved from freedom to disagree or be unpopular to reducing women to human incubators void of personal decision."
...and people like you give ZERO thought to the innocent baby inside her!? Is a decision to kill another human being a "personal" decision? Shouldn't the other human being (you know, the one BEING KILLED!) have a little say in the matter of whether they'd like to die or not (I'm guessing they would choose NOT)? Every time I hear someone speak of a "woman's right to choose" to murder, it makes me sick to my stomach.
I asked the baby inside her. I got no response. I presumed however that it wasn't interested in having a father who was also his grandfather and an incestial Felon.
Every time I hear someone speak of a "woman's right to choose" to murder, it makes me sick to my stomach.
So if you stopped choosing to mislabel it as murder, you would probably feel so much better. I love how "people like YOU" demonstrate your intolerance by speaking the mind of people like me.
You don't have a clue what I think or give consideration to. You’re just angry because I won't kowtow to your narrow views. Talk to your own sons and daughters about your beliefs and stop egging those extremists on who want to go out and murder another doctor.
Or maybe you just want to brainwash them to believe you are some expert on what "people like you" think without even knowing to whom you are speaking.
In America, it only takes Rush Limbaugh to pop a few (phony)prescription meds and tell you what the rest of the world is thinking. He winds you up like a little bobble-head doll and sends your misinformed self out to attack whomever he happened to paint a kick me sign on for the day.
What bigotry!
Rape and incest make up less than 1% of all pregancies. If we could limit abortion to that, we would make a huge move in the right direction. But to blame the child for the sins of the father or mother is wrong.
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