You're going to want to read this entire story. Robust debate, including accusations of personal gain.
This whole debate masks the true conflict - whether to use financial incentives to bring retail-type businesses to town. In the end, they need 4 votes to do so. Doesn't look like they have them, so probably the next election (spring 2011) will hinge mightily on this issue.
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18 comments:
Not much to say here but BS! Who will profit from this little stunt? Seems to me that corruption and the lack of ethics is alive and well in Ark City.
Well their campaign promises must be kept regardless if they can get a TIF or a Lowes!
But the real issue at hand is why does ACI have to have the taxpayers money to develope their property?
I don't see anyhting similar being offered to other landowners around the city by the CITY!
Let the Investment group and shareholders of ACI get financing or let them give or sell the land to the City!
How can it not be an act of favoritism on the part of the City to provide infrastructure for land owned by a private entity using taxpayer dollars?
The city's responsibility ends at the property line!
AND
Do Mr. Warren or Mr. Snell have a conflict of interest? (do they stand to personally benefit?)
In America, every business deal has someone who takes risks. That someone risks losing money in an effort to make money.
The question of who makes the money seems a bit trite here. Financial interests were well known before the most recent elections. Nothing was hidden from view.
In 2009, a majority of the citizenry - having every reason to expect this matter to come before the governing body again - voted for (three of) the five people who now serve as Commissioners. (Side note: you’ve been threatening to get rid of the other two at the very next election- does that tell you something?)
Having revisited how Arkansas City got to this point, it seems most likely that there is a vocal minority speaking out against this course of action. It is, perhaps, more sad that there is a muted majority who favor the direction of development and growth. They should speak up. It's cowardice not to.
Twenty years from now, there will either be a new commercial district there or not. Twenty years from now, someone will have profited or lost their shirt. Twenty years from now, it will have had a positive or negative financial impact on southern Cowley County.
One thing about it; It doesn't look like we will still be speculating about the pros and cons of "what if". Wheels are in motion. So now it would be more advisable to save some of that energy and use it staying alive for twenty more years to see the outcome.
All these blog arguments will be long forgotten within a year. You will be able to drive out there and see something or nothing or something kind of in between something and nothing as a development there.
In the future, vote wisely. Vote knowledgeably. Most of all.... VOTE!
. Financial interests were well known before the most recent elections. Nothing was hidden from view.
Well by your post it seems the vote should have been:
2 votes against
1 vote in favor
and
2 votes withheld or removed
Besides its been at least 20yrs. already and PRIME DEVELOPMENT PROPERTY! Just got deemed as "BLIGHTED".
GO figure!
What has happed to the ethics? I recently watched the tape of the meeting. Warren doesnt own stock in ACI, but his dad does. He admitted that on the tape! But nobody thinks he will gain from it? Lets see if I can get this right from the old Cheech and Chong movie...it looks like poo, it smells like poo, it feels like poo, it taste like poo, Good thing we didn't step in it!
Everybody must be smokin a big one, cause this whole thing is as corrupt as it gets.
I not a Kuhn fan but he has this one figured out. Dotty seems to know someone lied on the commission or city manager, which does not surprise me, but she aint tellin. What do they have on her?
Anonymous said...
Well by your post it seems the vote should have been:
2 votes against
1 vote in favor
and
2 votes withheld or removed
May 19, 2010 7:39 PM
Well tell me again why would any group of citizens elect someone to hold a seat where they would "NOT VOTE" on issues.
That's the expectation of the office. If you thought you were tying someone's hands by putting them in office, that was a silly miscalculation on your part and the majority of voters.
I think the reality is that the majority of the people want this to happen. It is also true that the majority lack the courage to stand up and say so.
Still, for whatever reason, they want this to happen. So, I would say, it's time to start thinking about how to react to it rather than gritting your teeth in a vow of opposition.
My truest thoughts is that 10 years from now it will yet be an underdeveloped area. Even in the best of times ti's long shot. But the state of teh economy and the horribly long lull between national recovery, then state recovery and finally rural/small town recovery says, we just moved to late to win it.
It would be like hosting a rally next month in support of keeping the Winfield State Hospital and Training Center.
Still, for whatever reason, they want this to happen. So, I would say, it's time to start thinking about how to react to it rather than gritting your teeth in a vow of opposition.
Interesting concepts - but the oposition as I see it - should not be to oppose growth or progress!
But, it shouldn't be conditional to who owns or controls the property and wants (even schemes) a way to use taxpayer dollars!
Does everyone want the project as you say?
Why not just put it on a ballot and find out! (Instead of allowing those who have a personal interest to decide! i.e. 2 votes withheld or removed!)
You might be right about a long recovery - but a recovery might actually start in areas that never participated in the BIG BOOM that led to the BIG BUST!
AND
Not in the same manor or by those same people! In fact I'd especially keep my eye on those who don't have 20 yrs. to make back what they lost somewhere else!
Just ask Scott Margolius about the Lowe’s development. Scott indicated during his campaign that his reelection would be a mandate against the development. Guess what he got the lowest number of votes. The three that ran in favor of development won. Ark City may have to wait until next spring but the development will eventually happen because a majority of the Citizens are tired of driving to Ponca City or Derby to shop
Would you care to go back to the election and look at the percentage of the total population that actually voted?
(The group in favor of the Lowes made sure they got voters to the Polls!)
I think some of the people are so SICK of the politics and "Power Stuggle" in Ark City!
They just don't CARE!
AND
Many if they could find a way to leave probably would or move out to the County! Sure seems the ones who have retired with money didn't stay and others are talking of leaving!
Keep up the good work!
Margolius was the victim of a Public Insider and Special Interest Group who simply baited the community with a proposal that was rejected else where! Then split the Community when they didn't get their way on their property!
Those Good Old Boys from ACI (standing in the empty field with a blue print on the front page of the paper) their relatives and friends!
God forbid they be Denied!
Oh, the whole Lowe's thing was a consipracy to get Margolius out? Please!
He was booted because he happened to be the only Amigo up for re-election at the time when people were at their angriest. Kuhn and Smith were just lucky their posts weren't up for re-election or they would have been gone first. Margolius was the least abrasive and smartest by far of the three. It was really Kuhn and Smith we wanted to send the message to the most. They will get it next time I'm sure.
Oh, the whole Lowe's thing was a consipracy to get Margolius out? Please!
You want to take a quick look at the "Players" and their financial or even personal relationships to people who hold elected or appointed Public Positions or do everything they can to get on some of the local boards?
Might even call them the "Shadow
Government"!
Anonymous said...
Would you care to go back to the election and look at the percentage of the total population that actually voted? May 21, 2010 1:55 PM
I am sorry. That's a cop out. First of all, southern Cowley has had historically low voter turnout for local elections. This has been the case for nearly three full decades.
The one exception was the slightly higher participation when Rebecca Bruton ran in 1999. Instead of whining about who does show up and vote and why, she actually went door to door and raised awareness on timely issues.
Before and since 1999, people in Arkansas City and the school district are simply disengaged. You've had extremely different leadership styles and focus over the past three decades. Still people just don't show at the polls.
We don't pass on to our children activism and involvement. We pass on to generation after generation this proficiency in complaining and blaming whoever holds the elected seat for our woes.
Even when we elected the people who were brave enough to go out and find a "fresh ideas" Manager to run the City, two years later, we turned against them and elected people who fired the new guy and brought back the local flavor.
So, we are right back where we were. Local minded folks with little imagination and even less resources to get things done. Those folks are good honest people who just don't have much innovation. That's what's on the inside.
On the outside are the people who still choose to blame their discontent on the very folks they elected to make such decisions.
It's a vicious cycle, I say.
We don't pass on to our children activism and involvement. We pass on to generation after generation this proficiency in complaining and blaming whoever holds the elected seat for our woes.
Well you can spin the election results however you want! The fact is the results didn't adequately reflect the opinion of the Majority of the total population either way!
As for activism and involvment?
The general trend is for those who can to leave! That doesn't mean things will change for the young an adventerous if you have new or innovative leadership!
But, you also don't attract new members from the outside!
Nor will you attract the diversity of talent who can support those needed or desired advancements which are the result of higher paying jobs and standard of living!
(A Lowe's or TIF won't change that either!)
This "Power Stuggle" doesn't seem to stop in A.C.!
It is between and carries over to the local Cities and even to the County! (Strother Field is a truly Blighted Area and not Goff Ind. Park which has never been fully devleoped and is Prime Development property Privately held by a Special Interest Group who are also Land Speculators and not Developers!)
Meanwhile, the trend is to let the Public Sector care for the needs of those who can't find jobs, have trouble paying their rent or simply can't find a way to get ahead! If they make bad choices? (Like drugs or to live on welfare) Then it's their fault!
It shouldn't be a Bad Choice to choose to Stay! (Because their futures are limited by lack of growth or opportunities!)
Why not work to make the chioce to Come or Stay here be a Wise Choice?
Government has its place/role -
but Government by itself can't be the SOLUTION!
AND
A government that works against or promotes itself as the only answer/solution?
Goes NOWHERE!
Btw: I think the City manager who left simply found himself caught in a web!
Soundsl like he was seeking to find a way to balance between Public and Private sectors!
(Didn't he get blasted for trying
overhaul an out of control City Government staff and employment?)
Anonymous May 23, 2010 11:57 AM
Rather than argue and assert "spin" call the county election office and ask for voter turnout in local elections.
It's fine to keep saying the majority of the voters did not participate in the election but this in not south america or the middle east where the right to vote is in question.
There is no excuse for not voting except that people don't care. You can't seriously think that city leadership and direction should be held hostage until we can get people to care enough to take fifteen minutes to go vote.
If they don't care enough to vote, their vote IS with the majority. If you care, you vote. If you don't vote, you don't care.
If they don't care enough to vote, their vote IS with the majority. If you care, you vote. If you don't vote, you don't care.
I like people like you!
You simply want to propose items to the Public! Then say they were in favor?
But, wait you have to vote in favor of the proposal to see what's in it! (That's one for the ages and even pre-Health care Bill legislation.)
Nobody but the developer and ACI knew what was in the original TIF proposal! Did they?
All that was SPUN was a Lowe's and Appleby's and the Amigos were
the SPOILERS!
Typical politics WHO CARES?
It didn't help the average Joe or Jane to get them a Job, increase their pay/income, lower or raise his/her utilites or taxes. (At least not according to the speculators!)
But those with a special or even personal interest? They rallied their troops to seize the opportunity of the resulting Publics Apathy!
A Run Away Freight Train Engine without pulling any cars!
One last thing - the TIF proposal was never put on a ballot for the Public to vote on!
Why was that?
Anonymous said……. One last thing - the TIF proposal was never put on a ballot for the Public to vote on!
Why was that?
May 23, 2010 10:09 PM
I'm sorry but I am going to hold your feet to the fire. The TIF was indeed put to a ballot. It's called a local election. They happen every two years and candidates tell you what they think about community issues.
The people who campaigned all shared their views on that particular topic. You KNEW where they stood when you went - or as some pitiful souls argue did not go - to the polls.
Yes the community voted. They elected people to set an agenda and priorities for this community.
It is time for us to grow up and recognize that local elections are what America is all about. Washington DC does not care about Arkansas City. Washington DC does not even know there IS an Arkansas City.
So you need to stop whining about voter referendums. That's a foolish waste of money to expect the citizens to vote on every issue before the City. You need to stop making excuses for not voting in local elections. That's just irresponsible and silly. You need to stop wasting your vote to get people out of office and instead listen and learn what the aspiring candidates outline as their vision and priorities for the community in which you live.
Your discontent is your own doing. Your whining is drowning only the sound of your snoring through local election after local election.
Your city's wheel spinning is the reward for not taking past elected officials serious when they tried to build up the community. Instead we manufactured some nonsense reason to "throw the bums out" when we didn't have clue what an election was about.
Stop this nonsense. Stop these absurd conspiracy theories and those fantasies about graft and corruption. Accept the responsibility to use a vote wisely. Act like an adult instead of some unmotivated teenager offering an incredible excuse for not completing a homework assignment.
It's your fault. The five commissioners are each living up to what they promised as candidates. Admit it. You didn't listen. You didn’t take it seriously. You glummed onto rumor and gossip and either voted or didn't even show up at the polls based on that misinformation.
Get off of it and see what happens next with the TIF.
Get off of it and see what happens next with the TIF.
I guess the same Players that were responsible as Board members of a local bank that just Failed!
Will get it right on that next TIF?
Will get it right on that next TIF?
What no respone?
The point being the same developers that went on a rampage that resulted in a Huge Bust!
Probably want to find somewhere to restart or extend that same scheme!
Bet the ACI Group knows them well through HNB Investments!
I bet they never stopped talking even after the first proposal was rejected!
Do I have an Odds maker?
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