Well golly I've been outed as a horrible journalist because I don't stick to facts and judged guilty of .... gulp ... stating my opinion, on the Arizona immigration law.
Again, people, anonymous hordes, or whoever you are .... this is an issue/opinion blog, this is not the news pages of the newspaper. It is my blog and I will give my opinions on issues here. If you don't like it don't read it but stop complaining that it contains my opinions!
Ahh, there ......
Now, down to some facts (with a liberal slant, of course) Supporters of the Ariz. law seem to think that somebody has to be arrested first, then questioned about residential documentation. As SG writes:
First of all, You have obviously not read the law. You should refrain from writing about it until you have a grasp of it. You are assuming that the law allows police to stop anyone who looks hispanic, because that is what you heard on MSNBC. IT DOESN'T! It says that if a person is already contacted by police for a lawful reason, and the police have reasonable suspicion that the person is in the country illegally, they may ask for their identification to find out. As the law stands here in Kansas, if a police officer stops you for a lawful reason, they can ask you for your identification (ie: your driver's license). There is nothing "flagrantly unconstitutional" about that, now is there?
I'd like to thank SG for providing a link to the law itself. He (she?) was right, I had not read the text. So I did (at least the first part of it) All it says is that law enforcement have to make "lawful" contact with somebody to ask them for papers. What does that mean? They sure don't have to have been arrested or even suspected of a crime. What's to say "lawful contact" is everthing short of beating somebody up? The term is not defined. Here's a good link on the subject: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-04-29/news/ct-oped-0429-chapman-20100429_1_illegal-immigrant-cops-immigration
Come on, now. The law's intent is clear - its to get the state and local cops to question people (hispanic people) who seem suspicous of being illegal residents. The problem is, how do you do that? What does an illegal alien look like? Even the gov. of the state refused to answer the question because she knew the answer would sound racist. The fear is, that an officer would be able to develop suspicion just by seeing an Hispanic person in a torn shirt who doesn't speak English, or something liek that. He makes lawful contact by coming up and saying hello. So now we have police/state inquisition based on "appearances" and it's an open invitation harassment of a minority group and harassment of "legal" resident based on how they appear.
I'm amazed that so-called conservatives like this law - it's a police state, big government, move that infringes on the rights of citizens. Anti-Tea Party!
A novice's take on the local, state and national political scenes
Me
David Allen
- Politics 101
- All politics is local -Tip O'Neil
23 comments:
I love how defensive people get when they get caught not knowing the entire story. And it is because of your liberal slant I do not buy your newspaper
Well for the record I am willing to give California to Mexico!
They are Bankrupt and the Southern part is 60-70% Hispanic! Let the suckers have it move the border North!
(Well at least the Southern Part).
As for Arizona and Nevada!
Shove all those illegals into the
Southern Part of the new California/Mexico!
Problem solved!
But, from your perspective "WHY have borders at all?"
AND
Whats yours is Mine!
I'm waiting for my share of what's yours, don't make me take it!
Because if you do?
It means then I've had to do something wrong?
Right?
Explain to me what America owes the illegal immigrants from Mexico?
Please?
First off, I never said they had to be arrested first. Please do not attribute things to me that I did not say. Secondly, I realize that this is your opinion blog, and while I usually don't agree with your opinion, I agree that you have every right to it. What you do not have the right to, in my opinion, is lying or misrepresenting something to make it fit your agenda or politics.
Again, I beg you to be informed before forming an opinion.
Changes have been made to the Law since it was signed by the governor. Even though it NEVER said any of the things the liberal media is trying to say it did, like allowing people to be stopped simply because they look hispanic (while eating ice cream), these changes should make it clear to even the dimmest liberal whiner(You listening Barry?).
"Solely" has been removed from the statement "A law enforcement official or agency … may not solely consider race, color or national origin."
"Lawful contact" was changed to "lawful stop, detention or arrest."
a "Lawful contact" is not just walking up and saying hi. A person in your position should know better than that.
The fact is, here in good old Ark City America, Police already have the right to walk up to someone and ask for ID if they feel that there is "reasonable suspicion" to do so. It's called a "Terry stop", and has been a law since 1968. See "Terry VS Ohio".
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio)
But, for some reason, I don't see liberals lining the streets protesting THAT! Where is all your moral outrage over that? Where is all your compassion for the downtrodden over that? I also don't see every state in the union being boycotted because of that. Nor do I see signs portraying the governor of every state as Adolph Hitler over that. What gives?
What I do see is liberals fighting hard to gain political points with hispanics no matter the consequences to the welfare of the United States. I see people who should not even be allowed the freedom of speech (Because they are not citizens of this country) spewing all kinds of vile crap about the governor of Arizona, who is trying to do what is best for her state because the federal government has failed miserably at protecting it's citizens.
Besides, the Arizona law is nearly identical to the Federal law that is being ignored by the government. If the federal government was doing it's job, this law would not even be necessary.
can California actually go bankrupt?
Long story short: Yes.
Here's the nut of how it works.
Say the state can't make its debt payments, and no one will lend it any more money. In that case, the federal government can step in and put the state into receivership. This would involve the assignment of an accountant to manage the state's debt, overseen by a judge. It would be a lot like bankruptcy, except instead of following a structured set of steps—informing creditors, appointing creditors' committees, a 120-day window to file a plan, etc.—a receiver has the authority to force creditors to renegotiate loans in a speedy fashion. However, the accountant in charge would not have the power to make decisions about the state's budget, such as which programs needed to be cut and which taxes had to be raised. (No state has ever gone into receivership.)
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/can-california-actually-go-bankrupt-yes-and-heres-how-2010-3#ixzz0n1bHC9we
It seems June has some important significance for Californina!
There are those who want to choose Bankrupcty over a Bailout!
Then there are 10 other states that are in almost as bad a shape as California!
AND
You want to keep giving things away?
Btw; It appears the Kansas legislature just got a shock as well! They just found out there was an unexpected shortfall in the recent tax collections!
So they changed law to sound less racist and less police-state like?
Well good.
And I would agree that it sounds better and there would seem to be less opportunity for racial profiling and harassment.
But the underlying problem is still there - you turn local cops into fed. agents and give them reason to hunt down hispanics who may or not be illegal. It opens a door to harassment and further demonizes Hispanics. Police can ask for documentation apparently even if contacted for municipal code violations like tall grass and cars on blocks. And if they "suspect" somebody is here illegally, can they not fashion a violation or use something as an excuse to check papers. And we all know what segment of the population this would be targeted to. And doesn't the idea of non-citizens having to carry papers on their person or face charges seem police state like?
And I don't get the "we already do this" argument. We may have to give id to police when they ask but we don't get arrested or charged if we don't have it.
I guess one major problem we "liberal winners" have with those so fired up about this issue is this: Much of the opposition to illegal immigration seems based on irrational personal anger and resentment connected to fear of having to accept or have contact with foreign cultures and races. Xenaphobia. Would there be this much emotion and resentment if middle class Canadians were flooding the northern border? Or coming to Ark City in large numbers?
SG says immigrants, even legal ones, should not have the freedom of speech to protest the law and say "vile things" about the Gov. of Arizona. You must assume he means then any constitutional rights, as freedom of speech is about as basic as it gets. Heck, toss them in jail without cause, let police come in and search their homes without cause. Arrest em if they are peacefully gathered on the street corner, because, well, you know how those immigrants are.
The history of immigration is filled with denigration of immigrants based on their differentness. And while illegal immigrants are, well illegal, and the fed. govt. should do something about it, is it that hard to put yourself in the shoes of the illegal immigrant who comes here (pretty much welcomed by businesses and anybody who likes cheap goods) to better their life and lives of their children/family?
Make no apologies for being sensitive to rights, human and constitutional, for people who have historically been at the low end of the totem poll
Sorry.
Sorry Davey, but me thinks you no doubt have a personal axe to grind when it comes to racism!
It was pretty evident with the Khun deal and its evident here, as well, that race trumps Right and Wrong!
Its your blog but don't expect others to carry your torch!
I don't think the "Law" was intended to key on race - just those who break it!
When it come to racism?
It is people like you who will never let it Die!
AND
O.J. is still innocent?
Coming up and saying hello is not "lawful contact". As SG said, you should know better than that having the journalism background you have.
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/
Here is a good website about the consequences of letting the problem of illegal immigration go unchecked.
Misinformed?
Yes. You certainly are.
Once again, you have misrepresented what I have said and twisted it around. I really wish you would stop doing that.
You said:
"Supporters of the Ariz. law seem to think that somebody has to be arrested first, then questioned about residential documentation. As SG writes:.." (implying that I was one of the ones you were talking about)
I never once said that they had to be arrested first. The wording of the law is very clear on that.
Then you said:
"SG says immigrants, even legal ones, should not have the freedom of speech to protest the law and say "vile things" about the Gov. of Arizona."
This one is just a blatant lie. Please show me where I said "EVEN THE LEGAL ONES". That does not even make sense. Why would you lie about what I said when it is so easy to look back to the post in which I said:
"I see people who should not even be allowed the freedom of speech (Because they are not citizens of this country) spewing all kinds of vile crap about the governor of Arizona..." If they were legal, they would be citizens of this country, would they not?!?!
It just boggles the mind.
Now then.. not only have you misrepresented whay I said to fit your goals yet again, you totally misrepresent the law. First you admitted that you had not even read the law before going on a misinformed rant about it, and now you have read "the first part of it" and still continue to misrepresent it. I will say again, it requires a legal reason for a stop by police. Just walking up and saying hi is not a "lawful stop, detention, or arrest".
Every day here in Ark City people are stopped for minor offenses such as a broken taillight or not using a turn signal, and then found to be guilty of larger offenses such as DUI, driving on a suspended license, or drug possession. Why are you not out championing their rights if you believe it is a violation? The simple answer is that it is not a violation. You just have your blinders on because you are worried about hispanics having to "show their papers". Please tell me how that is any different from you or I having to show our ID to an officer if we wre stopped. And yes, you can be arrested for driving without your license.
Arizona is simply doing the job that our government has ignored, causing the immigration crisis that we now face. The wording of the Arizona law is nearly identical to Federal laws already on the books. Federal laws which are being ignored by those who swore to uphold them.
And as for the statement that we would not be upset if we had an influx of Canadians or any other race coming here illegally, I say you are wrong. If they caused the economic problems that California and other states face I for one would feel exactly the same.
Besides, illegal is illegal! Some of us live our lives by the rule of law, no matter who it affects.
Besides, illegal is illegal! Some of us live our lives by the rule of law, no matter who it affects.
VERY WELL PUT!!!!!!
SG is right Mr. Seaton you did misrepresent what he said. I for one think you owe him or her an apology.
Well this is what I get for violating my own rules about sticking my arm in the badger hole of anonymous commenting.
It starts uncivil and goes from there...
I do have to correct one point - SG said I "lied" about his comment referring to legal immigrants. Here it is.
Start quote: "I see people who should not even be allowed the freedom of speech (Because they are not citizens of this country) spewing all kinds of vile crap about the governor of Arizona..."
"If they were legal, they would be citizens of this country, would they not?!?!
It just boggles the mind." end quote
Actually, legal immigrants are not citizens. That's why they are called immigrants, or legal aliens. Your comment stated that those who are not "citizens" should not have freedom of speech. That includes people from other countries living here with proper authority. And indeed they are afforded constitutional rights. You may have meant illegal residents only, but that's not what you said. And if that's what you meant, one has to wonder how you figured the people you saw, presumable on television, were "illegal." Or were you concluding that based on what they "appeared" to be. If so, that basically proves my point. If not, then apparently the media or the people themselves identified themselves as illegal residents, which seems unlikely. Possible but unlikely.
Come out of the cave folks. Law enforcement minus a tool, manufacture one to disrupt lives and diminish freedom.
There will be countless stops and arrests, charges for things not pertinent to illegal immigrant status and incidents of humiliation and dehumanization of the targeted population.
When someone hollars foul, the cops will just hide behind this ridiculous law.
As far as "legal contact" read on to see how things progress with local law enforcement after "legal contact".
The days are gone when law enforcement mission was to protect and to serve. Their mission is now to intercept and shakedown. Law enforcement is about generating a revenue stream for units of government.
Think not? The enactment of teh primary stop seatbelt law in each state where it is currently in effect is accompanied by a dramatic increase in punitive fines and citations. In one Oklahoma instance, the stop for seatbelt turned into a resisting arrest and battery of an officer simply because the motorists argued that tehy were wearing the seatbelt even though the officer "said" the motorist was not prior to the stop.
The officer argued that the motorist had put the seatbelt on between observation and the time it took him to turn the patrolcar around and make the stop.
He then bullied the motorist into an argument and made the aforementioned citations and arrest.
The seatbelt charge was dismissed because there was no recording of the observation. The other charges rsulted in hefty fines. Those charges would have never been rendered had it not been for the bogus stop and provocative mannerism of the arresting officer. None of which made the citizens of Tulsa any safer.
Contrary to what you may believe, what I meant by "citizen" was anyone who is in this county legally, and therefore covered by our constitutional bill of rights.
Citizenship (from Wikipedia):
U.S. citizenship is not defined by an obligation to participate in politics, pay taxes, obey laws, serve in the military, or vote, although citizens can participate in politics or join the military if they choose, but rather citizenship is a legal marker identifying a person as having a bundle of rights including the right to live and work in the United States as well as be a customer of government services. Most persons who undergo naturalization do so to get permission to live and work in the nation legally. American law permits dual citizenship so it is permitted for citizens of the United States to be a citizen of another country at the same time.
------------
Allow me to be clear. If you went through the proper channels, and are in this country legally, and the government knows your real name and has your information on file, then I am all for you being here to seek the American dream. What I am against is people sneaking in through the back door, totally ignoring and disrespecting our laws, and living an underground existence. We have seen the problems locally with illegals who commit a heinous crime and then skip back across the border never to be seen again.
If you want to try to label me a racist for that, then I am in good company!
I know this is a little off topic, but what are your thoughts about the School in California kicking 5 kids out of school for a day because they wore their American flag shirts on Cinco del Mayo? The administrators said it wasn't proper to wear red/white/blue on a Mexican holiday, and might cause violence.
Good! Those racist punks should have known better than to fly the American flag in the face of our neighbors from the south. This is the land of immigrants, not your father's America!
Well this is off topic as well!
Look at the recent turmoil that is erupting in Greece!
They have had to make severe cuts and raise taxes as the result of an Out Of Control Government!
(Government and Union Policies that can't be sustained!)
Whats interesting is the same people who want Government to back their schemes (take care of them) or their Socialist agendas?
Are the ones who go ballistic when Government is forced to make decisions that go against their plans!
If we don't correct our present course and actions? (Government gives and then Government must take away!)
Maybe Remind you of Illegal immigration with all its handouts?
There's probably an austerity plan (something similar to Greece) coming to a State or Federal Government near you!
AND
Socialism doesn't WORK!
Then
A Government that is forced to make all the decisions and treats everyone the same is probably a form of Communism!
Arizona State Senator Explains Anti-Illegal Bill
This is worth the read, trust me.
I'm Arizona State Senator Sylvia Allen. I want to explain SB 1070 which I voted for and was just signed by Governor Jan Brewer.
Rancher Rob Krantz was murdered by the drug cartel on his ranch a month ago. I participated in a senate hearing two weeks ago on the border violence, here is just some of the highlights from those who testified.
The people who live within 60 to 80 miles of the Arizona/Mexico Border have for years been terrorized and have pleaded for help to stop the daily invasion of humans who cross their property . One Rancher testified that 300 to 1200 people a DAY come across his ranch vandalizing his property, stealing his vehicles and property, cutting down his fences, and leaving trash. In the last
two years he has found 17 dead bodies and two Koran bibles.
Another rancher testified that daily drugs are brought across his ranch in a military operation. A point man with a machine gun goes in front, 1/2 mile behind are the guards fully armed, 1/2 mile behind them are the drugs, behind the drugs 1/2 mile are more guards. These people are violent and they will kill anyone who gets in the way. This was not the only rancher we heard that day that talked about the drug trains.
One man told of two illegal's who came upon his property one shot in the back and the other in the arm by the drug runners who had forced them to carry the drugs and then shot them. Daily they listen to gun fire during the night it is not safe to leave his family alone on the ranch and they can't leave the ranch for fear of nothing being left when they come back.
The border patrol is not on the border. They have set up 60 miles away with check points that do nothing to stop the invasion. They are not allowed to use force in stopping anyone who is entering. They run around chasing them, if they get their hands on them then they can take them back across the border.
Federal prisons have over 35% illegal's and 20% of Arizona prisons are filled with illegals. In the last few years 80% of our law enforcement that have been killed or wounded have been by an illegal.
The majority of people coming now are people we need to be worried about. The ranchers told us that they have seen a change in the people coming they are not just those who are looking for work and a better life.
The Federal Government has refused for years to do anything to help the border states . We have been over run and once they are here we have the burden of funding state services that they use. Education cost have been over a billion dollars. The healthcare cost billions of dollars. Our State is broke, $3.5 billion deficit and we have many serious decisions to make. One is that we do not have the money to care for any who are not here legally. It has to stop.
The border can be secured. We have the technology we have the ability to stop this invasion. We must know who is coming and they must come in an organized manner legally so that we can assimilate them into our population and protect the sovereignty of our country. We are a nation of laws. We have a responsibility to protect our citizens and to protect the integrity of our country and the government which we live under.
(CONTINUED)
(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE POST)
I would give amnesty today to many, but here is the problem, we dare not do this until the Border is secure. It will do no good to forgive them because thousands will come behind them and we will be over run to the point that there will no longer be the United States of America but a North American Union of open borders.
I ask you what form of government will we live under? How long will it be before we will be just like Mexico , Canada or any of the
other Central American or South American countries? We have already lost our language, everything must be printed in Spanish also. We have already lost our history--it is no longer taught in our schools. And we have lost our borders.
The leftist media has distorted what SB 1070 will do. It is not going to set up a Nazi Germany. Are you kidding. The ACLU and the leftist courts will do everything to protect those who are here illegally, but it was an effort to try and stop illegal's from setting up businesses, and employment, and receiving state services and give the ability to local law enforcement when there is probable cause like a traffic stop to determine if they are here legally. Federal law is very clear if you are here on a visa you must have your papers on you at all times. That is the law. In Arizona all you need to show you are a legal citizen is a driver license, MVD identification card,
Native American Card, or a Military ID. This is what you need to vote, get a hunting license, etc.. So nothing new has been added to this law. No one is going to be stopped walking down the street etc...
The Socialist who are in power in DC are angry because we dare try and do something and that something the Socialist wants us to do is just let them come. They want the "Transformation" to continue.
Maybe it is too late to save America . Maybe we are not worthy of freedom anymore. But as an elected official I must try to do what I can to protect our Constitutional Republic . Living in America is not a right just because you can walk across the border. Being an American is a responsibility and it comes by respecting and upholding the Constitution the law of our land which says what you must do to be a citizen of this country. Freedom is not free.
Oh but SG. Don't you know that all of those victims, I'm sorry, Farmers are just a bunch of racist biggot homophobes? I mean my word SG! Illeagal doesn't mean against the law! Don't you know that drug trains and thugs, I'm sorry, Innocent immigrants, are just trying to get here to make a better life for themselves? Besides, they didn't cross the border. The border crossed them. Remember?
Pretty good sarcasim huh?
Yes you can have your opinion....but it should base that opinion on ALL the facts. You did not...you based it on part of the facts. Funny when conservatives do the same thing you go on about how ill informed they are. Hum.......
"No one is going to be stopped walking down the street etc... " Man, you are naive - were you born yesterday?
and the whole "Read the law" bit is getting old. Of course the law reads the way it does, that's by design. But smarter Americans can read between the lines.
I stand behind Arizona and their new law, and now you can too. Boycott the cities that have boycotted Arizona.
• Seattle, Washington
• El Paso, Texas
• Austin, Texas
• Boston, Massachusetts
• St. Paul, Minnesota
• Boulder, Colorado
• San Diego, California
• West Hollywood, California
• San Francisco, California
• Los Angeles, California
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